9/11, and No Guns means No Right to Self-Defense

نوشتع شده توسط RaulPB, 20.05.2015 at 05:53

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 20.05.2015 at 05:13

Right now, you are defenseless, dependent on a government that doesn't give a shit about you.

Your government still doesn't give a shit about you either, armed or unarmed.

You miss the point.

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 06:11

Just because you lost faith in humanity and society doesnt make me wrong or bad.

Correct. You make yourself wrong, through your flawed way of thinking. Not me.

Thinking respecting the law makes you good? Hahaha. Not too long ago owning slaves meant "respecting the law". Once narrow minded, always narrow minded.

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 20.05.2015 at 05:57

You miss the point.

Even if you can defend yourself, your opponent can also attack you easily. Do you really think a guy that wants to kill you will give you a chance to defend yourself? It's not like he's gonna wait for you to show him your gun and point it at his head.

نوشتع شده توسط RaulPB, 20.05.2015 at 06:45

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 20.05.2015 at 05:57

You miss the point.

Even if you can defend yourself, your opponent can also attack you easily. Do you really think a guy that wants to kill you will give you a chance to defend yourself? It's not like he's gonna wait for you to show him your gun and point it at his head.

Nobody is idiotic enough to break into your house knowing there's a chance he will get shot. Unless he's breaking into the house of some deaf individual.

And you can get attacked easily as it is. You're just not aware of it.

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 04:35

Your ethnic bias and fascism is already boring on this forum. Go find some other game to troll.

Whoaaa, watch your mouth and think about lies you are posting here.
Explain me work of your brain, please - Goblin is fascist because he told the TRUTH

Croatian Serbs (Serbian citizens of Croatia) openly opposed and raged to the Croatian independence. In first period, they shown rage by 'boulder revolution' by blocking main Croatian roads.




After realizing it is not stopping Croatian enthusiasm for independent and free country, than started an unprecedented massacre, murders, slaughters and rape of Croatian civil population.
Simultaneously, YU army (read Serbian), formerly 3rd strongest army in Europe, invided Croatia, supported Serbian rebels from Croatia and armoured them.
Practically they gave them the condition and motive for all inhuman things they did to the Croatian civils.

Let me mention, in that time, Croatia didnt have an army and all weapons from YU Army gone on Serbian side; Croatian citizens didnt have weapons expect hunting rifles and pistols which you can see in the pictures below. They had neither an army uniforms or boots....





Only group in that time who could defend Croatian citizens and civils from Serbian rebels and YU army was Croatian Police (who was first armoured because Croatia was without an army in that time) and individual volunteers who were defending their homes and towns.

Whatsmore, let me write down difference between Serbian and Croatian army during whole war and their relationship with enemy army and enemy civils.

CROATIAN ARMY

Here you can see professional army and their relationship to the surrendered Serbian soldier. They didnt kill him, they didnt hurt him, they even helped him and took him in hospital.


Helpful


Humble prayer in the chatolic church destroyed by Serbians


There is one love which is endless - love to your own country



SERBIAN ARMY AND REBELS
Drunk rebels who did bestial crimes to the Croatian civil population, who bombarded even hospitals full of Croatian soldiers, pregnant women, kids and old people just beause they were Croats.

Killed Croatian civils




Drunk idiot and killer of innocent people


This old Croat was shot in head after this picture and his bones were never found.


This Croatian civil was killed after he didnt want to leave his home


This is known wall because behind it Croatian civils were killed one by one


Drunk Croatian Serbs (Serbian citizens of Croatia) who destroyed all, razed cities with land and killed innocent Croats




............ I have album with 4800 pictures from Croatian Independence war and after you see them all, all things are clear !

Also, that Serbian killers of innocent people are known in whole world by their brutal song which come true:
'Oh Slobo (Slobo = Slobodan Milošević - President of Republic Serbia) send us some salad,
there will be meat, there will be meat we will slaughter Croats.

---

Now we are fascist cause we defended our homes, cause we stopped more genocides, cause we are telling the truth which you are constantly and dishonorably trying to dispute just to defend your butchers and rapers.

Found this pic of tito

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 08:56

new croatian president changed consitution excluding minorities and Serbs while making Croatia land of Croats. Similar constitution was made in 1935 for Nazi Germany...

I have already proven this to be a blatant lie by posting an original Croatian constitution that you talk about ...and Serbs were not only in the constitution, but they were named first of the minorities and Croatia named their country as well.

Btw. this is Unleashed's topic about gun control ...our Balkan shit belongs to Balkan forum.

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 20.05.2015 at 05:57

نوشتع شده توسط RaulPB, 20.05.2015 at 05:53

Your government still doesn't give a shit about you either, armed or unarmed.

You miss the point.

To be honest, the citizenry being armed is unlikely to seriously change government attitude towards civilians, except perhaps the government adopting harsher measures.

The historic precedent of the Russian Army in WWI shows that soldiers generally will do whatever they believe is the quickest way home - which was, up to 1916, by following orders and hoping you survive battles. Individual morality and political beliefs have a tendency to disappear once a person is drafted into the army and trained.

By that reasoning, the United States government can count on 1.4 million trained soldiers executing its will, as long as it appears that there's a reasonable chance of success.

On the civilian side is 140 million people of fighting age (18~50). They outnumber the US Army 100:1 if they're all allowed to arm themselves. That sounds like a lot, but remember that the US Army is a formal national military with months of training and a solid core of experienced veterans, while the civilian militia are... well, untrained militia with not much in the way of real combat experience. They will likely shatter at their first combat experience, as the US did in the first African landings during WWII. They'll also mostly be unwilling to leave what they perceive as their hometown.

No... if the US government decides to start oppressing its people, the US government can start oppressing its people - armed with guns or not. The government truly doesn't have much reason to care.

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 08:56

Lies, lies and BS

Ugh...croatia vs Serbia >_< no seriously, war is war and war equals death, its the humanity's duty to prevent crimes, murders, wars and genocides.

نوشتع شده توسط Tirpitz406, 20.05.2015 at 10:18

Ugh...croatia vs Serbia >_< no seriously, war is war and war equals death, its the humanity's duty to prevent crimes, murders, wars and genocides.

This is exactly what Croats were doing during Serbian agression on their homeland.

But when you have on another side crazy drunk idiots who want to realize their old plan of 'Big Serbia' than only WAR is choice for preventing further crimes, murders of civilians, serbian genocides, rapes, slaughters, bombardings and etc.
Croatian people was faced with Serbian mistreatment during whole history and you have to say STOP once.

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 20.05.2015 at 07:13

Nobody is idiotic enough to break into your house knowing there's a chance he will get shot. Unless he's breaking into the house of some deaf individual.

And you can get attacked easily as it is. You're just not aware of it.

No need to break into your house, just wait for you to leave when you gotta buy food. It's not something that hard to think of.

I have the same possibilities of being attacked as you might have, probably, but less probabilities of ending up dead.

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 10:36

This is exactly what Croats were doing during Serbian agression on their homeland.

But when you have on another side crazy drunk idiots who want to realize their old plan of 'Big Serbia' than only WAR is choice for preventing further crimes, murders of civilians, serbian genocides, rapes, slaughters, bombardings and etc.
Croatian people was faced with Serbian mistreatment during whole history and you have to say STOP once.

you're doing it wrong.

nationalism and also patriotism elevate one country above others, this creates hate and hate creates war. uneless you love/hate all countrys equally you will always be supporting war in some way.

نوشتع شده توسط Tirpitz406, 20.05.2015 at 10:54

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 10:36

This is exactly what Croats were doing during Serbian agression on their homeland.

But when you have on another side crazy drunk idiots who want to realize their old plan of 'Big Serbia' than only WAR is choice for preventing further crimes, murders of civilians, serbian genocides, rapes, slaughters, bombardings and etc.
Croatian people was faced with Serbian mistreatment during whole history and you have to say STOP once.

you're doing it wrong.

nationalism and also patriotism elevate one country above others, this creates hate and hate creates war. uneless you love/hate all countrys equally you will always be supporting war in some way.

If you dont understand, dont comment pls.
If we didnt fucking defend from those bastards, we would be today part of Big Serbia which was their crazy idea during whole fucking history. Comment that comment on Tito's post who is supporting it, directly or indirectly.

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 10:42

If West didnt fund Croat and Slovenian rebels with weapon, Yugoslav Police and Army could arrest their leaders in the first hours of rebellion and no one would die. This is another proof that guns in civilian hands will get you to chaos.

Are you conscious amount of crap you are shitting out?
Croatian and Slovenian rebels LOL

Croatia didnt rebeled out on Serbian teritory, Croatia didnt have a reason for rebelling because Croatia was fucking accepted as independent country. That raged SERBIAN REBELS in Croatia and fucking murder, rape, slaughters, massacres and destroying of Croatian civils, soldiers, monuments and cities started by those same SERBIAN REBELS who were supported and armoured by YU army who at the same time invided Croatia to give a support in those Serbian atrocities, mostly because they wanted to realize an old plan of making Big Serbia.

That bullshit about Croatian rebels you can give to your sister, not here to me

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 11:10

Why do you insult Tirpitz?...

Why do you insult Serbs 'those bastards'... hatespeech is against atwar rules.

How you defended against 'Serbs' when you started the war? When you start the war, that mean you are the agressor and attacker. Yugoslav police consisted of Slovenians, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Hungarians. Yugoslav Army was also multiethnic, not Serbian as you present it in Croatia today.

When one part of the country take weapon and try to separate, then it is natural for police and military to interfere, thats not invasion, thats protection of law, country and civilians. By trying to take land from Yugoslavia, you INVADED Yugoslavia and started the war, therefore Yugoslavia DEFENDED. You didnt aim only Serbs, but also every other ethnicity in that war because war harm everyone, not only one group of people. War destroyed financials, economy and infrastructure, not only in Serbia, but in Slovenia, Kosovo, Bosnia as well.

I dont insult Tirpitz, I just said to him to not comment if he doesnt understand a situation or if he believes in your contradictory stories.....
I insulted Serbs who invided Croatia 'with those bastards', not Serbs in global.

How is possible that all YU officers were Serbians when Croatia was invided? Where are those Slovenians, Croats, Muslims, Macedonians, Albanians, Hungarians ?
Croatian people ran out from YU army before war, same as Slovenians, Albanians, Hungarians and Muslims. Idk about Macedonians.
Whatsmore, 70% of YU army before war was made of Serbs. It was controlled and ordered by Serbs,

AND LAST ONE LOL
Yugoslavia defended of Croats who invided Yugoslavia ??

I saw you crazy and talking bs many times, but this is unbeliveable.... psychiatry clinic is waiting for you with happines

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 11:46

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 11:21

I saw you crazy and talking bs many times, but this is unbeliveable.... psychiatry clinic is waiting for you with happines

Are you conscious amount of crap you are shitting out?

Why do you insult so much... what a troll... Are you aware of what a great troll you are?

Yugoslav Army had 50 Croatian Generals and many others. Yugoslav General Staff had only 2 serbs out of 12 Generals in it. Therefore Yugoslav Army wasnt Serbian controlled, but multiethnic like Soviet Army. Rebels wanted to hide the fact they were communists for 50 years, so they blamed everything on Serbs, plus geopolitcally it suited the West because USSR collapsed and US could invade whomever they want and not answer for consequences.

You BELIEVE you was defender while 'Serbia' which didnt existed in that time by the way, it was Yugoslavia attacked you. Belief and reality isnt the same, sorry.

THEY LEFT YUGOSLAV ARMY BEFORE INDEPENDENCE WAR, CAN YOUR BRAIN GET THAT FINALLY ?


Ok, amybe with bigger letters:

THEY LEFT YU ARMY BEFORE CROATIAN INDEPENDENCE WAR AND JOINED CROATIAN ARMY AFTER IT WAS FORMED

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 14:30

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 13:30

Russia had the largest and strongest army in 1991 and could stop the collapse of Warsaw Pact and Communism

lol

نوشتع شده توسط International, 20.05.2015 at 09:17

No... if the US government decides to start oppressing its people, the US government can start oppressing its people - armed with guns or not. The government truly doesn't have much reason to care.

So what you're telling me is that a handful of sociopaths in Washington wearing nice suits who can order around 1,361,755 soldiers (these people also have families they're not robots), are going to opress and enslave 140 MILLION armed people. And armed is the key word.

Ok.

نوشتع شده توسط Viruslegion, 20.05.2015 at 19:32

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 20.05.2015 at 14:30

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 13:30

Russia had the largest and strongest army in 1991 and could stop the collapse of Warsaw Pact and Communism

lol

He;s funny sometimes

Who would want a country with a population like this:

jk

aside from that

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 11:05

If you dont understand, dont comment pls.
If we didnt fucking defend from those bastards, we would be today part of Big Serbia which was their crazy idea during whole fucking history. Comment that comment on Tito's post who is supporting it, directly or indirectly.

i think you're being way too specific, my point was that nationalism and patriotism are bad, because they create a basis that allows to call other countries "terrorists" or "unholy" or "traitor ukrainian homofags" to justify a war.

i meant to comment on this:

نوشتع شده توسط Croat, 20.05.2015 at 08:17

Drunk Croatian Serbs (Serbian citizens of Croatia) who destroyed all, razed cities with land and killed innocent Croats

wich is nationalistic crap, dont be like the croatian army didnt kill too, its war, a crime against humanity, both sides act like assholes usally, sometimes one more than another, but thats not my point

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 21.05.2015 at 00:39

نوشتع شده توسط International, 20.05.2015 at 09:17

No... if the US government decides to start oppressing its people, the US government can start oppressing its people - armed with guns or not. The government truly doesn't have much reason to care.

So what you're telling me is that a handful of sociopaths in Washington wearing nice suits who can order around 1,361,755 soldiers (these people also have families they're not robots), are going to opress and enslave 140 MILLION armed people. And armed is the key word.

Ok.

Yup. That sounds about correct.

It's 1.4 million trained, organized and properly-led soldiers against 140 million improvised militia. I think I'll bet on the former.

Of course the soldiers aren't robots, but if there is one place where propaganda is the easiest to spread, it will be the national army.

I'd just like to say people seem to forget that 70% of those who have guns in America are veterans if the military not the fat zombie sheeple I see you guys talking about, secondly you act like the police and army would fight there own people if the government told them to, they would not we are there brothers and family not some buerucrate in a fancy suit. That's why America has such an expansive drone program so they no longer need to brainwash soldiers to spread there tyranny they can have a small military loyal to money instead. America is gonna try and take over the world just like those before it, the diference is it has rule book on what not to do like fighting russia in open battle is a death wish. So they will buy there time further corrupting the world Untill only it's puppets are left Only then will they try and kill off free men.

نوشتع شده توسط Helly, 22.05.2015 at 00:19

secondly you act like the police and army would fight there own people if the government told them to, they would not we are there brothers and family not some buerucrate in a fancy suit. That's why America has such an expansive drone program so they no longer need to brainwash soldiers

They think real life is like AW, you can move soldiers around like the hand of god and kill whatever population you tell them to, and they won't bat an eyelash

In the case of anything like that, even the army would collapse or side with the population. And the government overthrown. That's why they didn't try to TAKE THE GUNS from the people who already have them. They are not stupid.

In other words, the right and freedom to own a gun protected itself.

نوشتع شده توسط Skanderbeg, 21.05.2015 at 04:39

نوشتع شده توسط Viruslegion, 20.05.2015 at 19:32

lol

For me, it is sad how West didnt know of Soviet might. USSR had troubles with economy and financial system because of collectivism, but that doesnt mean they couldnt spam tanks, helicopters and jet fighters like crazy... like they did. Plus every Soviet male citizen conscripted to the Red Army for 2 whole years, 3 in the Red Navy. When Soviet Union collapsed, 90% of their military industry and weapons remained in Russian Federation, while others kept few tanks and helicopters.

Thank God US and EU wasnt foolish enough to attack USSR in the Cold War, there would be a bloodbath of innocent Danish, French and Italian boys.

Russia was among first republics to separate from USSR, because why would Russia fund Soviet allies in Warsaw Pact, some insignificant Poland and Romania, or why rebuilding and giving money to Soviet Ukraine or Soviet Baltic, let them go, we dont want them. We want to spend our precious resources only on Russian Federation. Now look at Baltic, Ukraine and Poland, they become western vassals, with ruined economies and overtaken financials

Armies tend to collapse when the government runs out of money to pay for weapons and officers. The Soviet economy may have been fine enough to pay for everything in 1970, but by 1990 that definitely wasn't the case. Economically and politically the Soviet Union in 1990 could not support a large military.

Poland today is a prosperous economy, stronger and more independent than it was in any time between 1950 and 1980. So's the Czech Republic. So's Slovakia. So's Estonia. Hungary. Latvia. "Ruined economies"? I don't think so. In fact, note how "western vassals" of the former Soviet bloc do better economically than the anti-western states. Countries like Ukraine or Kazakhstan with strong pro-Russian elements do much worse economically than the so-called "western vassals" like Poland or Lithuania.

"Russia fund Soviet allies in Warsaw Pact"? That is also a joke. If Russia funded their allies so well, then how come Czechoslovakia, formerly a rich and prosperous country, got its economy completely wrecked under Communist rule?

نوشتع شده توسط Helly, 22.05.2015 at 00:19

I'd just like to say people seem to forget that 70% of those who have guns in America are veterans if the military not the fat zombie sheeple I see you guys talking about, secondly you act like the police and army would fight there own people if the government told them to, they would not we are there brothers and family not some buerucrate in a fancy suit. That's why America has such an expansive drone program so they no longer need to brainwash soldiers to spread there tyranny they can have a small military loyal to money instead. America is gonna try and take over the world just like those before it, the diference is it has rule book on what not to do like fighting russia in open battle is a death wish. So they will buy there time further corrupting the world Untill only it's puppets are left Only then will they try and kill off free men.

The pre-WWI Russian army is pretty good evidence that armies, under usual circumstances, do what they're told to. People that hated the Czar became pretty loyal soldiers after a few months' training. As long as the US Army gets fed, clothed and wins enough battles to not feel hopeless, they'll do what they're told.

Also, do you really think the US government will be stupid enough to pitch an army against their own family? You can be sure that almost all US soldiers in such a hypothetical civil war will never so much as see their home state in the entire campaign, let alone anyone they know.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, right. Plus the US government will be flooding their military with propaganda. That might have some impact as well.

نوشتع شده توسط Unleashed, 22.05.2015 at 00:55

They think real life is like AW, you can move soldiers around like the hand of god and kill whatever population you tell them to, and they won't bat an eyelash

In the case of anything like that, even the army would collapse or side with the population. And the government overthrown. That's why they didn't try to TAKE THE GUNS from the people who already have them. They are not stupid.

In other words, the right and freedom to own a gun protected itself.

Armies don't collapse unless they're under extreme stress.

"Extreme" as in "we lost 30% of our men and our supplies are cut off" sort of stress. The general World War II evidence seems to be (in my opinion, of course) that trained divisions can handle up to 30% losses or so without cracking.

The army side with the population? Good luck with that. The "Army" is not this bloc of righteous men. It is a bloc of men, most of whom are more concerned with their own welfare than that of some stranger's, led by a smaller bloc of men with similar concerns, which are led by an even smaller bloc of men, so on and so fourth. If any level decides to turn its arms against the government, that unit will find themselves completely isolated from other units, rapidly losing organization and intelligence and having a difficult time collecting supplies. A situation which no sane military man will want to be in. Some units will rebel, of course, but the lack of horizontal communication (almost all communication is from superior to inferior or vice versa) means that the chance of a serious uprising in the Army that turns the bulk of its strength against the government is negligible.

Have a look at, for example, when the Russian Army cracked in the First World War. It took a broad combination of enormous losses (millions got killed against the German Army), a lack of motive for joining the army (unlike the US today, most soldiers in 1917 Russia were conscripts), loss of supply and loss of civilian loyalty caused by a collapsing food and fuel supply (the famine of Petrograd, for example), defection of generals commanding entire armies, etc. etc. Unless the US government is led by total idiots (hint: it isn't), they can keep the army as a whole from rebelling.

Wake me up when you come back from fantasy land