Advanced concepts about Walls: Investigation.

Advanced concepts about Walls: Investigation.

This post is a continuation of the original "Basic forms of walling". If you haven't read it, you should.
This is the link: Basic forms of walling >>>>>>>> http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=15896

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Notes and updates:


August, 2015.
On Saturday 1, august, I've finally discovered the mechanics involved in the lines of the walls. With this, a method to make a full closed wall was finally found. So in Sunday I've tried to reorganize the thread to make it readable... moved all the tests to some posts in the thread, and just left a resume of the information found in the original post.

January, 2015.
After two months, I've finally release the guide on Thursday 22, January. Thanks to khal.eesi, even though you've got sick the whole new year, got a stupid PC and retire from the help at one quarter of the post, you've still made this whole thread possible. Also Thanks to Mr_Own_U, who cooperated for some tests of this guide. Thanks for the support!

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Wall technical date


Wall Range: minimal 1 range, maximal 2 range.
Wall Fuck ratio: 1 range.

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Zoom bug in walls: Knowledge


If you zoom out, you can attack a wall that is behind another wall under certain conditions.

1) Doesn't matter the size/length of the wall.
2) The wall you're trying to attack must be at less than 1 range difference from the wall you're trying to bypass.
3) The angle and position of the walls may interfere on the zoom bug, making it easier or harder to do.

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How to break inner wall + outer wall layout


Player A attack one side of the double wall.
Player B removes his double wall by mixing units that are from that wall.
Result: The Inner wall will break without battle.

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Classic tricks of walling
Kill all the units that are wall fucking, then make a wall at the same turn.
Auto wall - Make one wall then attack the wf'ed unit in next turn.
Big wall - Larger outer wall that allow you the same safety of double wall without bugs.
Re wall - Remove your wall and place another in the same turn.
Serbian wall - Kill all the units of your enemy's wall AND wall at the same turn, same place.

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Sea Wall


You can't break land unit's wall with naval units if their wall range is less than ~10%
If you superimpose your sea trans, they will form part of the wall.

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Transport and their walls, helicopter wall.


It is possible to bug the transport in order to make them wall, even helicopters.

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Zero unit wall


If you zero bug on a wall, it will appear to be zero bugged, but it is really a display bug. Reset the page to make the units display correctly.

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Wall line: Appear and Disappear

Appear (Triangle wall):





Disappear (Broken wall):

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Feel free to post test here, they will be include in the post. If you have any though about how mechanic works, feel free to post it too, any idea help!

Strong

Made a marine wall but it failed after i ended turn :9

great work clovis

Wall large - Min, max, and WF ratio.

What is the length of a wall? In this test we are going to prove that the minimal range is 1, and the maximal range is 2.

Hence are two walls. I've formed them with the minimal and maximal range that the game let me.



Now, for the test we are going to use this: Two walls, one made with the minimal range and the other made by the maximal range. In the bottom there is one tank that haves no range, one general with Movement Range upgrade and one militia that haven't move (in other words, the militia have 2 range).


For prove the maximal range, we are going to put one militia with two range in total in one of the extreme of the wall. In the same way, we are going to put one tank which have no range, along with the general. One air transport was used for ensure both units to research their destination.


Now, we could just move the troops for prove the experiment. However, I've turned on the "Range" toggle button.

You can see in the next screenshot how the unit's circles fits with out initial statement: The max lenght of a wall is two range, the minimal is 1 range.

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As for the WF ratio, in this experiment we are going to prove that the wall fuck ratio, the range in which an unit need to be in order to prevent a wall is around 1.

I've made a circle around the unit, in a distance that seems to be the one that prevent walls from forming. For this experiment we are going to use one general with Movement Range upgrade and one infantry without range. One air transport was also used for move the units.


We move the infantry till it haves no range:


Now, we are going to superimpose the infantry over the enemy's unit. Remember that the infantry was dropped by Air Transport, therefore it have no range:


We place the general there, with another Air Transport:


Then, we select the general and the infantry. As you can see, the range is pretty much near of 1 range (the range which the Movement Upgrade gives). It is safe to assume that, the wall fuck radio is around 1.

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Conclusion:

1. Walls max range is 2 range, minimal range is 1 range.
2. An unit can prevent any wall to be made in a radio of 1 range.

I want flower power back.

You deserve all the credit clovis.great job!

edit.although yeah you did spilled some secrets you probably shouldnt have

This should be kept one a need to know basis xD

نوشتع شده توسط clovis1122, 23.01.2015 at 06:09

Awesome! that explains how laochra made helicopter wall. Will test.

EDIT: how did you made it ,,

if i knew id tell you lol, it was a complete random accident.

نوشتع شده توسط Skittzophrenic, 23.01.2015 at 08:05

I want flower power back.

Posting bugs and exploits like zoom bug, should get you banned

نوشتع شده توسط Tundy, 23.01.2015 at 11:40

Posting bugs and exploits like zoom bug, should get you banned

Zoom bug OP

نوشتع شده توسط clovis1122, 23.01.2015 at 06:09

نوشتع شده توسط Htin, 22.01.2015 at 21:18

Made a marine wall but it failed after i ended turn :9

Awesome! that explains how laochra made helicopter wall. Will test.

EDIT: how did you made it ,,

That wall cannot work

Nice bugs

The full triangle wall can only be done by attacking an enemy unit in one of the spots on your wall i think...

نوشتع شده توسط clovis1122, 23.01.2015 at 06:09

نوشتع شده توسط Htin, 22.01.2015 at 21:18

Made a marine wall but it failed after i ended turn :9

Awesome! that explains how laochra made helicopter wall. Will test.

EDIT: how did you made it ,,

he merged marine with inf, when he was making walls, when he did it he just sent inf-s away.
http://prntscr.com/5wt6os

Zoom bugs and walls - Do them, prevent them.

DO THEM

For zoom bug, all you need to do is zoom in or out and try to research one wall that is behind another wall.







Range of Zoom bug

For this experiment we are going to prove that you can attack walls behind walls for at least 1 range of distance.

This screenshot have the main idea of the process:



Describing the process before: I've moved from one side of the wall to the other side, one general and one militia which had no range. My units stayed somewhere closer to the middle. After that, I've moved with one transport another unit that had no range ( one tank for my example). Then, I moved general with that unit upward. I cannot avoid humans errors (even though I had zoomed 300% in browser) so the wall obvious wouldn't be so upward or exactly at 1 range difference.

1 range

Following the above, we are going to prove that is possible to zoom bug a wall that is at ~1 range distance:






More than 1 range

I've moved the unit a little North:


However this time I couldn't research it. I've tried many times, but it seems like the unit just won't be zoom bugged.


With this test we can say, until someones proves me wrong, that you can zoom bug any unit in 1 range difference from the wall.

Preventing zoom bugs: Which wall length?

It is well-know that walls at 100% length cannot prevent zoom bugs.



However, not even walls at 50% length can prevent them. This experiment will prove it.

~50%

For this we need one unit with no range and one general with Movement Range upgrade:




While doing this experiment, I've noticed that you cannot zoom bug one unit.



But for one wall.... is different:



Maybe below 50% length it works?

below 50%

I've moved the units just a bit down the 50%, for see if this is the line.... apparently it is not:





Minimal range (closer to 1%)

Maybe zoom bug can be prevented when the units are at their minimal range (1 range between units) ? Again, nope.



Minimal range AND unit at 1 range of distance:

And at last, maybe there is a relation between the distance of the behind wall and the length of the wall? This test proves there is not:





From all the test above, we can conclude that you can zoom bug the wall, doesn't matter the length of the wall.

Zoom bugs and Double Wall:

And of course, the zoom bugs really affect the double wall mechanics. For example, I've pointed the entries of this Double Wall:



This is the wall that I've showed for counter the big wall arguments. It uses 8 + 3 units and features outer + Inner wall. Until this date, I haven't discovered a way to zoom bug it. I though that the units were just too closer or just too far away from the outer wall for being zoom bugged. My initial though about the entrances are marked:

1,4: Units too far away. More than 1.5x range. This is a little obvious.

6,5: Surface inclined. More than 1 range. The surface is pretty inclined, which could change the range that zoom bug users needs.

2,3,7: Wrong angle. More than 1 range. Same explanation as above.

However, the real though is that:



The recent test which show that is possible to zoom bug regardless of the wall length AND the test which show that the distance for zoom bug over one unit is 1 range contradict what I've though about my double wall.

Do you guys think that the union of multiple walls or the angle of various wall could influence in the way in which zoom bugs works? This is a question that would requires lot of test.

The zoom bug rules that came from this experiment could be placed like this:



1. You cannot zoom bug one unit. It need to be a wall.
2. You can only zoom bug a wall that is at ~1 range difference from the wall to the start of the other wall in question.
3. You can zoom bug though any size of walls.
4. The angle, position and the formation of various walls could influence in the way in which zoom bug works.

نوشتع شده توسط clovis1122, 25.01.2015 at 07:13

نوشتع شده توسط Guest, 25.01.2015 at 05:16

نوشتع شده توسط clovis1122, 23.01.2015 at 06:09

نوشتع شده توسط Htin, 22.01.2015 at 21:18

Made a marine wall but it failed after i ended turn :9

Awesome! that explains how laochra made helicopter wall. Will test.

EDIT: how did you made it ,,

he merged marine with inf, when he was making walls, when he did it he just sent inf-s away.
http://prntscr.com/5wt6os

I assumed the only line that you can see in his screenshot was himself placing the marines right there. I don't see the lines of him removing the infantries though.

lol clovis, he could've undo move of inf-s and they would've return into that city

Removing a wall? TurnBlock and Micro walling implications.

Have you ever made a double wall, but somehow your enemy breaks them? This test will determine whether is possible to break an inner wall if both users follow the next tricks in question.

This screenshot had happened to me in a match against Sun Tsu I believe. My inner wall got broken even though he didn't attack it.



If he didn't attack it, is obvious that he didn't zoom bugged through it. Therefore, We are starting this test under the premise that the wall cannot be zoom bugged.

I've done many, many tests. so I will just post the one that was successful and put the failed test in the form of a question/answer:

This was the successful one:

Player A attacks the wall. It doesn't matter if he sends enough units to kill them or not.

Player B mixes the units that were in the outer wall. Does not matter if player B moves or not those units far away. Does not matter if player B gets TB'ed.

Result: Player A units (following TB mechanics) would either stay there OR turn block the units in question. I haven't got the third result (player A units follow player B units) but is pretty safe to say that either way, the inner wall will get broken.

In screenshots:

Ukraine's side:


Turkey's side:


Result: Inner wall broked


Cleared result:


Why this happened? I believe it is because the units were too close to the inner wall and, following superimpose mechanics, one of the sides of the inner wall got displaced by the battle that happened there. And since player A won (In my tests), player B got wallfucked.

What if player A would have lost? I haven't got this result, but worth testing.

According to the test I've failed I can guarantee the following results:

What if your opponent attacks your double wall from all sides and wall-fuck one? It doesn't work.

What if your opponent does the sentence above... but I also move my units somewhere else? It doesn't work.

What if the opponent walled two units too close each others, and I attacked them trying to start a micro battle there? It doesn't work.... I've tried with just one side of the double wall up, worth testing with the whole side there.

It is also worth mentioning that, until now, I haven't seen a wall getting broken without the fact that the user who made the wall moved his units somewhere else. Of course, I am disqualifying the zoom bug in this statement. Wort testing.

You can also break walls by superimposing one unit over one of the walls. To maximize your chances, you should superimpose one unit on ALL SIDES. This also acts like a wallfuck and has the same displace effect that the micro wars.

I dont know if this information is relevant or not, but both of the inf near kiev were breaking the bigwall.

I've just lost 2 games because of walls, they well perfectly made but people just go through them like nothing happened and then take my capitals with all my soldiers still around and kicking, what's the matter?

Transports and their wall, helicopter wall.

Before start talking about this point, I must make this implication: For superimpose users, this is not the same.

First of all, let me introduce my experience. I was playing a Whole World game, 50k with some friends. Then lucky, in the same turn I was approaching to U.S I've noticed that the guy did a strange wall. It you notice carefully, you will see that, according to the line, it seems like he moved the units directly toward the line.



What's the difference between this type of wall AND the superimposed one? that the units are not ever forming a wall.



Check the screenshot carefully, ¿Can you see how if I attack the wall, it shows that I am attacking only one part of it? This is the difference between this wall and one that was made by superimposing units: This one does not get the bonus.

Honestly I wouldn't (and I didn't) attack the unit and discover my stealth assault just for the sake of this experiment. Either way, I've reset he page for disqualify the chance of this being a display bug.



Yeah.... it is not a display bug. Maybe my screen is frozen?



According to the witness, this is not a display bug. They can see the wall in the same way we can. I couldn't talk to U.S about it - he refuse to ally with us, he also ignored all our PR asking for alliance. He only talked when we already had his capital. His words where "You guys....." then he left.

And like if we were joking about the wall....



Bump! he add another line of it. It is similar to the other and very different from the zoom bug ones, because if you attack it you would still be attacking one side of it:



Until now, I refuse to think that this rank 5 knows about what he ever did. But this bug is still impressing. How to do it? This information will be released after some tests and though.

Following the same mechanic, It is also possible to make walls by using Helicopters and Marines (In other words, with Desert Storm only). I am sorry to not have any kind of screenshot or test that proves this to be possible.

However, I have witness. It was a 5k 2vs2 CW between Illyria and syndicate. I was Ukraine, Eagles was somewhere in Balkans (Serbia?). Acquiesce was Poland and Laochra was Ireland. It was pretty even. But at some point (as it was expected) it turned into a 1vs1 between DS west and IMP east. I had the numerical advantage at the start, but quickly lost against Laochra's late gaming. What called me the attention was a wall in those two islands.... between Corsica (France) and Sardinia (Italy).

It was a wall made by helicopters.

I've asked Laochra many times about this issue, but he barely remember it. Since it was too old I don't expect him to remember it either. But from what I remember, the wall was made by 4 helicopters and 2 marines in one side, and 1 helicopter in the other. I know this, because I had one sentry near the area. There were many other helicopters around this stack too, but they weren't walling. There was no land unit, or ever Air Transport around it (except for the marines, which cannot make a wall).

Some time ago (28/01/2015) I've received the next screenshot by Laochra. It is another accidental wall made by helicopters.



The original screenshot can be found HERE

I've asked about the conditions, it happened to be on a casual game right after he end turn - both helicopters were loaded with marines. Future test are coming for this camp.

The first time i made sort of a circle and i could see the red line ( i was red) and it was fine, the second time i made a straight one and i could see it was well done ( i was blue) but i don't know of how many men was the wall composed of, i think by more than 3, is 3 the max limit?

نوشتع شده توسط NickTheConqueror, 19.03.2015 at 08:48

The first time i made sort of a circle and i could see the red line ( i was red) and it was fine, the second time i made a straight one and i could see it was well done ( i was blue) but i don't know of how many men was the wall composed of, i think by more than 3, is 3 the max limit?

No but 3 units is the most efficient way possible I'll suggest you to check the first post about walls, it contains basic info:

http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=15896

نوشتع شده توسط NickTheConqueror, 19.03.2015 at 08:48

The first time i made sort of a circle and i could see the red line ( i was red) and it was fine, the second time i made a straight one and i could see it was well done ( i was blue) but i don't know of how many men was the wall composed of, i think by more than 3, is 3 the max limit?

Did you made the wall the same turn as your enemy attack your city. he probably late attack your cities. Remember movement are prioritize.

Zero wall bug.

If you though you could make a 3-man-wall with less units, then you are wrong. This is a mere display bug.



It is made when someone uses the "zero units bug" on units that are forming a wall. The unit that was used for do this is also lost: You are really using 3 units. You won't be able to use the unit that was zero bugged until you've reset the page, following the rules of that bug.

نوشتع شده توسط Htin, 19.03.2015 at 14:40

نوشتع شده توسط NickTheConqueror, 19.03.2015 at 08:48

The first time i made sort of a circle and i could see the red line ( i was red) and it was fine, the second time i made a straight one and i could see it was well done ( i was blue) but i don't know of how many men was the wall composed of, i think by more than 3, is 3 the max limit?

Did you made the wall the same turn as your enemy attack your city. he probably late attack your cities. Remember movement are prioritize.

Hmm, that could be possible, i don't remember if i made it the turn before they attacked my city (could be the same turn they sent the order to attack) or before, but that could certainly be the case.

Will try to make them way before my enemies are close to my capital, but i'm not sure if i wanna risk losing because of a wall again

Recommend: Clovis as MOD

Here's my research with Walls involving Turn Block mechanics.

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Basic concepts:

For this experiment we are going to use 3 bombers and 3 infantries. Watch carefully the formation in which infantries are placed:



Following up the experiment, I've notice the game does mind in which time did you place every infantry. The unit that was placed first is the first unit of the wall. The unit that is placed second (and trust, forming the wall link) is the second unit of the wall. Also, there can only be two units of the wall, since 3-man-triangle walls haven't yet been discovered. This means, if you link one unit with other unit that is also forming part of a wall, the "new unit" will be the "second" unit of the new wall.

The second unit is TOTALLY DEPENDABLE of the first unit. And as that, when your enemy attack a wall the mechanics that involves the size, movement or priority of one unit will be based on the first unit of the wall.

Here's the screenshot, explaining the wall order.



Additionally, your enemy can know in which order did you placed your units. When attacking a wall, there are two circles: A red one and a White one.



The white transparent indicates the second unit of one wall, while the red one indicates the first unit of the wall. This doesn't change in which position you attack the wall. Here's the screenshot of the second wall: Once again, both circles appear:



Be sure to understand this before entering to the following paragraph.

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Test Result:

First of all, on all the tests enough moves were made for ensure a 99% TB rate.

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Test 1:

I've move the second unit out of the wall. Blue attacked the second wall.




Result: Turn Block.



Explanation: Since the Second unit of the wall is totally dependable of the first unit, A TurnBlock attempt will be based in the priority of the first unit, which is 99%. Doesn't matter what you do, TurnBlocks chances will be taken for the first unit. So, both units will have the first unit %Turn Block chances.

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Test 2:

The test 1 was inverted. I've changed the position of the walls for make it the first unit to be the second, and so on.

I've move the first unit outside. Blue attacked the second wall.

Result: Superimposition and escape.



Explanation: The mechanics were executed in this way: After the first unit being moved, the Bomber attacked the destination. However since the first unit was moved out of here, an "Invisible" battle happened. As a result of this, the second unit had a 100% chance of TurnBlock and the bomber would've superimposed closer to the position where the first unit was. In other words, the second unit just won't move and the bomber will stay closer to the position where the first unit was.

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Test 3:

I've follow the same procedure than was made in the Test 2, with the exception that this time I send the unit to somewhere in the map.

Result: TurnBlock.

Explanation: Since the unit was in range of the attack of the bomber, the Turn Blocks mechanics expose that the bomber would follow the unit, if successfully archive the Turn Block chance and also the unit was not mixed with other unit/cities. Since the chances of Turn Blocks were 99%, the bomber successfully attacked the wall.

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Test 4:

I've follow Test 2 experiment, but with this twist: I've moved the First unit of the wall to another unit (mix) instead of a city.



Result: Superimpose and escape.



Explanation: Same logic as with test #2 applies here. But this time, instead of a city we used one unit.

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Test 5:

I've followed Test 4 but with this twist: I've move the First Unit of the wall, then move another unit to it.

Result: Turn Block and Teleport bug:



Explanation: Now since the unit was moved first and it was in range for a bomber attack it should had been Turn Blocked. However I've also mixed it up with other unit. Since they are from the same type, and following TurnBlock merge mechanics , the new unit of the stack followed the first one to its original destination, where the battle happened. If you check the image carefully you will notice that there are lines pointing to somewhere where there is no unit - That means the stack teleported.

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For conclude, more tests are coming about this subject. But be warned when you are moving a wall: Some bugs like the explained above will happen if you aren't carefully enough.


Small resume of the new knowledge:

Basic concepts
- First unit of a Wall is the first unit placed.
- TurnBlocks in one wall are define by the First Unit's priority.

Test Results:

- If you don't move the First unit of a Wall and the enemy attacks it, the second unit will get TurnBlocked.
- If you move the First Unit of a wall TB's chances are 0% for that unit, and 100% for the second unit. Must be to another city or to another unit.
- If you move the First Unit to somewhere in the map in range of the enemy's unit the same TurnBlock values will happens. Second unit will have 100% TB chances.
- If you move the First Unit to somewhere in the map, but also add a stack to it, and if also the First Unit get TurnBlocked, the whole stack will Teleport to the First Unit position.

Too long didn't read.

are there no jobs in Dominican republic or something

Clovis is working in the library for job